"Why Believe in God" ad campaign

[David E]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Israelis and Palestinians are killing each other. Why? You can trace it right back to the fact that both sides are certain that their religion gives them justifiable claim to a chunk of desert and that any deaths resulting are a small price to pay for doing god's work. And if you think that's just from the Palestinian side, you are sorely mistaken.

I know you are coming from a good place on this and you want to be objective with regard to both sides (as do I), and that there are two sides to every story. But the reality in this case is that the two sides are very different:

The Israelis repeatedly say they want peace and a two state solution. They have put their money where their mouth is and have done various "land for peace" deals including the Gaza pull-out of 2005 where their army forcibly removed Jewish settlers.

Hamas repeatedly has said it does not want a two state solution and that they want Israel gone completely. They have also put their money where their mouth is.

I have to believe what the two parties themselves say since their actions back them up.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by David E

The Israelis repeatedly say they want peace and a two state solution. They have put their money where their mouth is and have done various "land for peace" deals including the Gaza pull-out of 2005 where their army forcibly removed Jewish settlers.

BTW, that would be the leftist, secular, forces in Knesset that have made negotiation with Palestinians the predominant position of Israel. The right wing religious parties continue to insist that force is the only answer.

[David E]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

BTW, that would be the leftist, secular, forces in Knesset that have made negotiation with Palestinians the predominant position of Israel. The right wing religious parties continue to insist that force is the only answer.

I didn't say they didn't think force might be necessary, only that they want a two-state solution and peace. As you say, they differ among themselves as to how to achieve that. The problem with this leftist ideal is that negotiation only works when both parties have a similar frame of reference/values. Gandhi and MLK's peaceful resistance worked with the British Empire and in the US because they were appealing to a common sense of decency of those regimes, whereas it would not have worked against a Hitler or at Tiannaman Square.

So too negotiation alone can't work with Hamas - what is there to negotiate when they want nothing less than the destruction of Israel (as they themselves say), and are willing to die for their cause?

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by David E

So too negotiation alone can't work with Hamas - what is there to negotiate when they want nothing less than the destruction of Israel (as they themselves say), and are willing to die for their cause?

Their religious cause.

But that's exactly my point. Israel knows full well they can claim they want peace until they are blue and white in the face and never have that bluff called. But rest assured that if it ever came down to it, there'd be more than enough of them wanting to wipe Palestineans off the map right back at them.

ETA: Restating my point slightly and succinctly - if the truly religious segment of Israel held the power, there would be no talk of a two state solution.

[David E]

Originally Posted by Ghoulish Delight

Restating my point slightly and succinctly - if the truly religious segment of Israel held the power, there would be no talk of a two state solution.

There are some hard-core religious settlers, but as far as I know they are within the 1948 borders and do not advocate the genocide and destruction of any Palestinian nation. Do you have some representative quotes or news stories to back up your charges of this?

I am not saying there is not bad religion; there obviously is. I am saying that the fix for this is good religion, not no religion.

Recent news item on the subject for those of you who rely on scientific studies (80 yrs in this case) to state what is obvious to many of us:

By JOHN TIERNEY
Published: NY Times, December 29, 2008

If I’m serious about keeping my New Year’s resolutions in 2009, should I add another one? Should the to-do list include, “Start going to church”?

This is an awkward question for a heathen to contemplate, but I felt obliged to raise it with Michael McCullough after reading his report in the upcoming issue of the Psychological Bulletin. He and a fellow psychologist at the University of Miami, Brian Willoughby, have reviewed eight decades of research and concluded that religious belief and piety promote self-control.

This sounded to me uncomfortably similar to the conclusion of the nuns who taught me in grade school, but Dr. McCullough has no evangelical motives...His professional interest arose from a desire to understand why religion evolved and why it seems to help so many people. Researchers around the world have repeatedly found that devoutly religious people tend to do better in school, live longer, have more satisfying marriages and be generally happier.

[€uroMeinke]

I wonder what "good" religion is - especially when competing God's and their prophets seem to claim they're the right one. It would seem off the bat that the real dangerous religions are the one's that seek converts,since that's what seem to lead to all these conflicts and fears of infidels.

Of course, the only sure way to eliminate bad religions is to destroy them, I suppose that means we must allow genocide in those cases - I mean, it's just to root our evil after all. Our God's will forgive us this trespass.

May our polytheistic love triumph over the haters and converters, for our religion is the one that is good.

[David E]

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

I wonder what "good" religion is - especially when competing God's and their prophets seem to claim they're the right one.

A first grader could understand what good and bad manifestations of religion are: blowing up a plane vs. Salvation Army collections would be a simple example.

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

It would seem off the bat that the real dangerous religions are the one's that seek converts,since that's what seem to lead to all these conflicts and fears of infidels.

Well, its true in the case of Muslim extremism that we see today, but Jehovah's Witnesses try to convert too and are not dangerous. Again it comes down to good or bad manifestations. I don't logically understand why you can assert and believe in the bad but deny that it can be good...so many things in life are not intrinsically bad but can be abused. Like my example of water saving your life or drowning you..

Originally Posted by €uroMeinke

Of course, the only sure way to eliminate bad religions is to destroy them, I suppose that means we must allow genocide in those cases - I mean, it's just to root our evil after all. Our God's will forgive us this trespass.

You are presenting this as though it is typical of religion in the world today, but only a small percentage of Muslims advocate genocide, so it's not a fair or accurate representation.

[Ghoulish Delight]

Originally Posted by David E

There are some hard-core religious settlers, but as far as I know they are within the 1948 borders and do not advocate the genocide and destruction of any Palestinian nation. Do you have some representative quotes or news stories to back up your charges of this?

Spend your time talking to truly religious Jews, especially ones that have spent time in Israel. The devout do not want peace. The devout want the temple restored and to carry out God's will to slaughter their enemies in his name.

They attribute phenomena to him that science can’t explain - everything from the mathematically improbable coincidences we all experience, to ghosts to past life regressions...these may not all point to the existence of God, but they are supernatural and they are glimpses of something.

Precisely the kind of illogical, irrational thought that religion encourages/demands. The kind of lack of critical thinking that allows people to be happy and satisfied while killing other people.