The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[JWBear]

Be that as it may, the point was to list all the right wing pundits that keep insisting that waterboarding isn't torture.

[Alex]

You believe Geithner was aware of in any way that the general public wasn't of the waterboarding of these prisoners? What exactly do you think the president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York does? Other than simply using waterboarding as punishment (though it would apparently be for pursuing policies you find disagreeable), on what basis could Geithner be on any list of people to be considered for it?

That said, I'm in favor of any and all of our politicians who are healthy enough for it volunteering to experience waterboarding. Then maybe we'll avoid such moral failure in the future.

[scaeagles]

Right. Geithner shouldn't have been on the list. I just started naming some prominent dems without really thinking. I do not think Geithner would have been in any position to know anything.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Right. Geithner shouldn't have been on the list. I just started naming some prominent dems without really thinking.

Aha! Without really thinking. There's a lot of that going around with the repubs these days. Hey, I'm not especially political, and I only lean a little to the left, but really, is this the best that the Grand Old Party can do? Pelosi knew? Hey, I'm prepared to believe that she did, and that she is being a weenie by ducking the issue now. If so, so the hell what!? It's politically embarrasing for her - but the last eight years have been politically devastating to the GOP. Defending waterboarding and trying to indict Pelosi is a dead-end street. Y'all are going to have to do some soul-searching, my friends. (And I'm truly in favor of a healthy, intellectually robust conservative opposition. I look forward to their re-appearance sometime soon.)

The whole "let's waterboard (insert political enemy) next" meme is pointless from both sides. The consensus is in. It's torture, or so close to it as to make no difference. We've all known about it for years now.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Why not? Pelosi knew, maybe I should have said her instead. I personally believe that most of them knew, and if they objected then, they were too freakin frightened to say anything.

The authorizing memos and the waterboarding took place in 02-03, right? Why on earth would Obama (not a senator until 05) have been notified about it?

[flippyshark]

And, okay, this is the last time I'll pick on you, scaeagles - but, other than the fact that you don't like them - why again do you think prominent dems should undergo waterboarding? Because they might have known about it? Because you think they are horrible people? I disagree with those who think that conservatives should be waterboarded, as stated before. But at least it was coherent - Hannity doesn't think waterboarding was torture, so, let him try it and see how he likes it. (Which, of course, he offered to do before apparently changing his mind.) So, there is a direct correlation between the "crime" (thinking waterboarding is okay) and the punishment (let 'em have it.) Just to clarify, I don't follow this line of thinking. I don't even particularly advise anyone to voluntarily undergo the process, as I understand it's potentially much more dangerous than is generally acknowledged.

But, just to press you a bit - why exactly do you think Obama, Clinton, not Gethner but certainly Pelosi deserve waterboarding? They already agree it's torture. They presumably find it objectionable. So, they deserve it? Do you think they will undergo it and come out saying, "Oh! That wasn't so bad after all!"

Or were you just offering a knee-jerk response to all the "let's waterboard prominent conservatives" posts?

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by flippyshark

Or were you just offering a knee-jerk response to all the "let's waterboard prominent conservatives" posts?

Bingo!

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by flippyshark

Aha! Without really thinking. There's a lot of that going around with the repubs these days.

I completely disagree. I can't speak for all of course, but as a listener of Hannity most of the time, the comments are not flippant, but thought out. I have gone back on forth on the issue myself. Most members of our military that go through specialized training are water boarded. Why would the military "torture" their own members? Just because something is unpleasant or I want it to stop doesn't necessarily make it torture.

In saying, that, though, I do go back and forth on it. There are days when i think it isn't necessary, prudent, or moral, then I wonder why the practices would be released without any results of the process being released. There has been a discussion (but I don't believe there has been any verification) of a 9/11 style plot on Los Angeles that was directly thwarted by info from these water boarding sessions. I also know only 3 detainees were subjected to it, so it was hardly a widespread thing. However, immoral behavior, regardless of how limited, is still mimoral behavior.

What I'm typing is part of the thought process I've been through.

I also have no doubt that should a 9/11 style attack have taken place on LA that the dems would have been screaming "why didn't Bush do more?!?!?!". Same as the dems screaming right now about this when I believe they knew of this practice. (And yes, Flippy, I just listed some prominent dems....my point wasn't the specific people, but simply trying to point out that there were people on left side of the aisle that certainly knew and didn't speak up until it was to their political advantage to do so....so in my listing of people, I didn't stop and really think about which ones. Perhaps I should have listed Pelosi and done some research into exactly who was privy to the breifings Pelosi was privy to.)

[Scrooge McSam]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Pelosi knew

Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. She maintains the CIA misled Congress, which is not an outrageous charge. I don't think we need to list the documented instances of the CIA doing just that, do we?

I just love who's leading the charge to discredit Pelosi, though - John Boehner. LOL Boehner says it's "hard for me to imagine" the CIA would mislead Congress. He's sure changed his tune, hasn't he? Wasn't he just defending Hoekstra for claiming the CIA misled Congress? Or have I fallen all Star-Trekian into an alternate timeline?

Boehner's attack on Pelosi is bronzer foam; a faux** front whipped into a creamy froth via the injection of compressed air. The only difference is attacking Pelosi doesn't make him look orange. I think that's something else. I don't know exactly why he looks orange, but you can be sure it's the fault of someone in the liberal media.

** - As a liberal, I by definition love all things European (especially France) more than my own country, so you'll have to excuse me if that frenchy stuff slips out now and again. Lucky I don't know more French, huh? I suppose I could take that Rosetta Stone course - seems to have worked for that nice Michael Phelps boy I see on the tee-vee machine - but it's hard to find the time when I'm not actively working to support the terrorists who seek to destroy us "because of our freedoms". Oh well, c'est la vie! (sOrRy - I did it again)

Spoiler:

How's it going, Leo? Long time, no talk to. Did you get the Mustang? I've been off and on lately and may have missed it.

[Scrooge McSam]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

Why would the military "torture" their own members?

Read up on the "SERE" program and you'll have your answer.

A torturer can make you confess to anything, even if it's false. SERE endeavored to train our guys to resist an enemy's attempts to extract a false confession.