The random political thoughts thread (Part Deux)

[JWBear]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

And yes, Flippy, I just listed some prominent dems....my point wasn't the specific people, but simply trying to point out that there were people on left side of the aisle that certainly knew and didn't speak up until it was to their political advantage to do so....

Again, you missed the point. We were listing people on the right who are quite vocal in denying that waterboarding is torture, not people who might have known we were diong it.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by JWBear

Again, you missed the point. We were listing people on the right who are quite vocal in denying that waterboarding is torture, not people who might have known we were diong it.

In my opinion, it is far worse to believe it is torture and do nothing when they know it is happening than to vocally express that it is not torture.

I personally know two members of the armed forces who have been subjected to it and do not consider it torture.....and in fact, find it somewhat ridiculous that it is categorized as such. There are people who have been subjected to it who do not consider it to be. What is torture to me may not be torture to someone else. I am deathly afraid of the dentist, do not go willingly, dread it, and want it to be over immediately. It literally takes every ounce of will power I have not to bolt from the chair. Is that to be considered torture? I don't think I'd like water boarding, but someone like Michael Phelps might not mind at all. Hell, I'd like to sue my son's 4th grade music teacher for making him practice his recorder for 3 hours/month. THAT is torture.

[flippyshark]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

In my opinion, it is far worse to believe it is torture and do nothing when they know it is happening than to vocally express that it is not torture.

I personally know two members of the armed forces who have been subjected to it and do not consider it torture.....and in fact, find it somewhat ridiculous that it is categorized as such. There are people who have been subjected to it who do not consider it to be. What is torture to me may not be torture to someone else. I am deathly afraid of the dentist, do not go willingly, dread it, and want it to be over immediately. It literally takes every ounce of will power I have not to bolt from the chair. Is that to be considered torture? I don't think I'd like water boarding, but someone like Michael Phelps might not mind at all. Hell, I'd like to sue my son's 4th grade music teacher for making him practice his recorder for 3 hours/month. THAT is torture.

I'm with you all the way about the dentist.

It seems to me that the majority of democrats have been railing against it for years now. I'd want evidence that they knew and stayed silent back in '02. And if that is so, then I'd be interested in knowing when they changed their minds and why. And then, yes, I'd agree that said weasliness is worse than simply having the opinion that the practice isn't torture. But neither of these things are high crimes - they are pretty small potatoes compared to actually authorizing and carrying out torture. (Or even enhanced unpleasantness.)

I don't doubt that there are people who can take it and shrug it off. How much did your armed forces acquaintances undergo? Were they subjected for hours at a time, over a hundred times in one month? (That is definitely going into the torture category for me.) Would they feel the same way if they underwent the procedure after being imprisoned for a few years, less fit, confined and not knowing what was happening to them? I can't answer that, of course.

I'm convinced that waterboarding doesn't belong in our bag of interrogation tricks. It seems obvious to me just as its relative harmlessness seems obvious to you. But whether or not it deserves the name torture is just semantics. Until someone convinces me with evidence, I call the practice needless, ugly and ineffective. It makes us look desperate and scared, and I'm not convinced it bought us anything useful.

[scaeagles]

Originally Posted by flippyshark

How much did your armed forces acquaintances undergo? Were they subjected for hours at a time, over a hundred times in one month?

Honestly, I don't know. All I know is that they've both basically said that they were waterboarded during training, it while wasn't pleasant, they really didn't think they were bring tortured. I will certainly admit that in part could be because they knew it was training and didn't figure anyone was planning on killing them.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by scaeagles

I am deathly afraid of the dentist, do not go willingly, dread it, and want it to be over immediately. It literally takes every ounce of will power I have not to bolt from the chair. Is that to be considered torture?

If somebody forces you to do it as punishment or a form of cercion, then it likely is.

As for your friends who don't consider it to be torture, do you think they'd still hold that position if it were Taliban fighters doing it to a member of their platoon? Or is part of the reason that they don't consider torture that it is Americans doing it to other people?